fbpx
Skip to content

Slouching towards Thatcham

One dad, three kids and a blog
Main navigation
  • Home
  • A dad’s life
  • Entertainment
    • TV
    • Music
    • Games
  • Viewpoints
  • Features
    • Musical parodies
    • My Sunday Photo
    • Blogging tips
    • Parenting adverts
    • Nostalgia
    • Podcast
  • About me
Tim October 13, 2010 Other stuff

In defence of bloggers: An open letter to Andrew Marr

BBC Politics journalist Andrew Marr on the red...

Dear Andrew,

My, oh my, you really have set the virtual cat amongst the pigeons, haven’t you? The blogosphere is up in arms at the dismissive and derogatory remarks you made about bloggers – or ‘citizen journalists’, as some choose to label us – at the Cheltenham Literary Festival a few days ago.

Of course, you are well qualified to make your comments. A Cambridge degree, the editorship of The Independent, five years as political editor of BBC News and a further five as a TV and radio presenter constitutes an impressive CV which I daresay few professional journalists can match, let alone their ‘citizen’ counterparts.

And you knew exactly what you were doing when you further underlined your opinion in your subsequent responses to questions from the audience. You knew that the blogosphere, Twitter – hell, even those trapped miners in Chile – would rise up against you in unison screaming, “Oi, Marr – no!”

I also recognise your judicious use of qualifiers and modifiers in your statements, which stop just short of tarring everyone with the same brush, but which you knew full well would be misused and abused by the baying hordes. You are a seasoned professional who knows exactly how to play the media game. (You are also, by the way, someone whose opinion and integrity I have long respected – and continue to respect despite your outburst.)

Anyhow, allow me to respond to what you said on behalf of my audience of literally dozens.

Most citizen journalism strikes me as nothing to do with journalism at all.

Wikipedia defines journalism as “the investigation and reporting of events, issues and trends to a broad audience”. It is a loose definition, but even so it occurs to me that a lot of professional ‘journalism’ has little or nothing to do with the true aims of the profession at all. Unless you think countless weekly magazines printing unverified third-hand gossip stories and grainy ‘nip slip’ photos of Z-list soap actresses most people have never heard of is in the wider public interest.

The vast majority of us bloggers write because we have an interest and passion we want to share with others. We do it in our spare time – some have considerably more than others! – because we love it, not because we are paid for it. And yes, some of us do it because we are dreadful show-offs and loud-mouths – I can’t imagine there are any individuals like that in the journalistic world …

A lot of bloggers seem to be socially inadequate, pimpled, single, slightly seedy, bald, cauliflower-nosed, young men sitting in their mother’s basements and ranting. They are very angry people.

But enough about yourself, Andrew. (Okay, I know that’s a cheap shot to take at a target who is married with three children and whose father-in-law is a life peer. But, hey, you threw the first punch.) I know you used the generalisation “a lot of” rather than the more definitive “all”, giving you an escape route, but you knew exactly how this comment would be interpreted. As a married, middle-aged man with a crippling mortgage and a full head of hair who mostly writes about stuff that makes him happy, I understand the general point you are making about a certain vocal portion of the blogging universe – I read other blogs, I’ve seen them too – but I can’t say I’m best pleased by you lumping me in with the trolls. Thanks for that. (And, by the way, my mother doesn’t have a basement. She buries the bodies under the patio.)

Okay, the country is full of very angry people. Many of us are angry people at times. Some of us are angry and drunk. But the so-called citizen journalism is the spewings and rantings of very drunk people late at night.

While we’re making generalisations which are both outdated and inaccurate, maybe I should paint a picture of all journalists as bitter, middle-aged, nicotine-stained, drunken hacks in grubby, mud-splattered mackintoshes who spend most of their time hanging around in seedy Fleet Street pubs with a spiral-bound notebook containing pages of rudimentary scribbled shorthand. But I would never stoop so low, would I?

In fact, if I just clipped out the last 13 words of the above quote – “journalism is the spewings and rantings of very drunk people late at night” – how many people would dispute that? I’m not saying you fit that stereotype – I know you don’t – but can you honestly say that no journalist or editor has ever spewed and ranted and distorted a story to fit his own bilious agenda? People. Stones. Glass houses. Let’s leave it at that, shall we?

It is fantastic at times but it is not going to replace journalism.

Yes, yes, yes, you conclude by acknowledging that there is a modicum of good to be found within the evil empire – a closing, conciliatory statement which has become lost among all the headline-grabbing furore. But then you knew that would happen, didn’t you. That’s why you didn’t say it up front as one of your leading statements: a measured, balanced view doesn’t generate column inches, does it?

The fact is that in some ways citizen journalism is already replacing the traditional variety, or at the very least supplementing it. There are brilliant blogging sites such as Huffington Post or The Daily Beast, where the quality and depth of knowledge of what is written – some of it produced by former professional journalists – is frequently superior to much of the broadcast media.

Even among the masses of single-operator ‘citizen journalists’ out there, you will find plenty of knowledgeable, incisive and amusing writers who focus on specific topics outside of the traditional mainstream. They fill a vacuum; most do it competently, some brilliantly.

And what about the impact that citizen journalism and social media have had on the speed of news reporting and the dissemination of opinion in heavily censored nations? Would we have had as rapid and well-rounded a view of the Iranian election protests, the Mumbai bombings or the Hudson plane landing without the ordinary Joes on the street and their blogs, Twitter feeds and YouTube videos?

Yes, there are plenty of bloggers out there who have little to offer other than derivative invective, incorrect facts and a masterclass in grammatical mangling, but they do not represent the majority of bloggers. And it’s not as if many of us have an English or journalism degree, and access to an army of sub-editors and fact-checkers to help us craft tight, beautifully presented arguments. But most of us are literate, as diligent as we can be about factual accuracy and attribution of sources, and have valid opinions on topics we are passionate about. Indeed, on detailed and specific topics, some of us are – shock, horror – even more knowledgeable about what we write than the more generalist journos who cover the same subjects for the major media outlets. That is often the case in areas such as technology, where the news agenda often revolves around influential online blogs and communities such as TechCrunch, and not around traditional media. Welcome to the new world order.

Most of the blogging is too angry and too abusive. It is vituperative.

“Most of?” Hardly. On political blogs, where emotions run high and contributors know they have the opportunity to address a large audience, that is often the case. (The same goes for sports blogs and forums.) But if the trolls are too angry, abusive and vituperative, perhaps that is in part because they are commenting on a political world which displays the exact same characteristics.

Terrible things are said online because they are anonymous. People say things online that they wouldn’t dream of saying in person.

There is a large element of truth in what you say here. But it is hardly a phenomenon unique to the online world. People frequently use the anonymity of crowds to hurl the basest insults and, on occasion, even missiles. And even when a person’s name is directly attributed to abuse – even when that person is in a public position – that has not stopped them from saying the most terrible things about individuals. As an example, I cite Jan Moir‘s hateful column in the Daily Mail about the late Stephen Gately. (I know the Press Complaints Commission exonerated her; it doesn’t make what Moyer said about a dead man any less spiteful.) Don’t blame bloggers for a problem which is present in wider society, and which has existed for far longer than the web.

Finally, I should acknowledge that the subject of your talk was about how modern technology is rapidly changing the way people receive news, and in particular the threat ‘free-to-air’ sources represent to eroding the commercial viability and therefore quality of traditional news media. You believe we are in a transitional phase, and that in future people will be willing to pay for online information, just as today we pay for newspapers and magazines.

I am spending a lot of money on my iTunes account, I am already buying journalism online, I am buying information online, I am buying books online. Even if you are not doing it, your children and your grandchildren will be doing it.

Funnily enough, I happen to agree with you. I recognise that the long-established business model of news publishing is under threat by the plethora of free alternatives, just as the viability of the music industry is threatened by widespread piracy. The revenue model for journalism will undoubtedly change – we cannot expect high quality news and current affairs reporting to be provided for free in perpetuity – but the operating model will also have to change. Traditional journalism needs to embrace change and find ways to work alongside the burgeoning model of citizen journalism, not against it.

Those of us who write and/or read blogs but who also treasure accurate, objective news-gathering and dissemination – and there are more of us than many naysayers think – recognise the difference between Angry Andy’s Bashing Blog and the BBC or the Wall Street Journal and their inherent economic value. There is a place in our lives for both types of journalism, though. Work with us, not against us, and you will find a body of willing advocates to help create an agile, 21st-century journalism which will endure and thrive in the digital age.

Or, alternatively, just descend to the kind of angry, abusive and vituperative comments you accuse so many bloggers of. Your choice.

Yours sincerely,

Tim

Related Articles

  • BBC Cojo: Andrew Marr is ‘spot on’ (blogs.journalism.co.uk)
  • In defence of bloggers – we’re not inadequate & pimpled (simplyzesty.com)
  • Andrew Marr fails to learn from his own history (onlinejournalismblog.com)
  • Andrew Marr says bloggers are ‘inadequate, pimpled and single’ (guardian.co.uk)
  • Marr on bloggers: inadequate, pimpled, single, seedy, abusive ranters (guardian.co.uk)
  • Andrew Marr attacks ‘inadequate, pimpled and single’ bloggers (telegraph.co.uk)
  • Krishnan Guru Murthy (guardian.co.uk)
  • Citizens Vs ‘Journalists’ (72point.com)

Share this post:

  • Twitter
  • Facebook
  • Reddit
  • Tumblr
  • Pinterest
  • Email
  • Print

Like this:

Like Loading...
Posted in Other stuff and tagged Andrew Marr, Blogging, citizen journalism, journalism. Bookmark the permalink.

30Comments

Add yours
  1. 1
    theproseandthepassion on October 13, 2010 at 1:27 pm
    Reply

    Well said, Tim.

    At around the same time as Andrew Marr was venting his spleen about “angry” bloggers (er, pot, kettle, black?!), I was in the adjacent Garden Theatre at the Cheltenham Literary Festival listening to Mark Kermode be very entertaining.

    He was asked a question that effectively said “in the days where anyone can blog, anyone can be a critic, how valuable are film critics like you?”

    To which his excellent and far more balanced / mature / informed response was that (and I’m paraphrasing)… if you;re going to write about films and have opinions about films that you hope might influence other people, THE VERY LEAST YOU CAN DO IS TO WATCH A LOT OF FILMS. Be informed and knowledgeable so that your writing and criticism is more than just subjective ranting (hint: my own blog…). And I’m sure he’d also extend that argument to cover other forms of writing – not just film criticism.

    Just have you have argued, this applies as much to bloggers as it does to “mainstream” journalists. If anything, it’s MORE of a responsibility for these mainstream writers, as they have the privilege and luxury of a massive audience. With great privilege comes great responsibility.

    I generally and genuinely respect Andrew Marr. But I think he let himself down a bit with that outburst.

    Loading...
    • 2
      Tim on October 13, 2010 at 1:59 pm
      Reply

      It was a tawdry and headline-grabbing act, which I genuinely did not expect from him.

      I know there are plenty of blogs and commenters out there who are exactly as Marr says: angry, abusive and vituperative. But to tar everyone with the same brush (with just a few cunning qualifiers to give him a back door out) was all of the above too. Still, I suppose it got him plenty of column inches, even if his main (and valid) point was somewhat buried underneath all the noise.

      I’m off to work on my pimples … 😉

      Loading...
  2. 3
    citizenr on October 13, 2010 at 1:51 pm
    Reply

    Well I for one am very happy at being called a citizen journalist. Hurrah for us dribbling peasants! Thanks for dropping by at my own blog and keep up the good blogging work.

    ps I think we’ve both been very restrained in discussing Mr Marr’s looks, having been called ‘cauliflower- nosed’ etc. Many others haven’t been so restrained. 😉

    Loading...
    • 4
      Tim on October 13, 2010 at 3:16 pm
      Reply

      Personally, I think the cauliflower is a very distinguished and aesthetically-pleasing vegetable. I wouldn’t dream of referring to Andrew Marr as “Jug-Ears” or something even more derogatory than that. Oh no. Not me. 🙂

      Loading...
  3. 5
    aardvarkian on October 13, 2010 at 3:21 pm
    Reply

    This is an excellent, well thought out letter/blog, Tim. It’s definitely worth a Tweet from me.

    Loading...
    • 6
      Tim on October 13, 2010 at 3:39 pm
      Reply

      Cheers, James. Good to see you back on form!

      (Was I not angry, abusive or vituperative enough, though?)

      Loading...
      • 7
        Kate Jack on October 17, 2010 at 1:46 pm
        Reply

        Your reply to Mr Marr’s comments were well thought out and balanced, unlike his.

        Loading...
  4. 8
    millefeuilleandme on October 13, 2010 at 3:36 pm
    Reply

    Well said!

    Loading...
  5. 9
    ~Posh~ on October 13, 2010 at 4:34 pm
    Reply

    Great post Tim! Particularly like your final paragraph – Marr’s comments would appear to be narrow-minded and too broad. Encouraging to know there are those of us who can ably sort the drivel from the quality (although, I confess, I don’t mind a bit of nonsense now and then!)

    Loading...
    • 10
      Tim on October 13, 2010 at 5:24 pm
      Reply

      Thanks Soph. There’s always space for a bit of nonsense – God knows I write enough of it on this blog! – as long as it’s not dressed up as something other than what it is.

      Loading...
  6. 11
    Baboonery on October 13, 2010 at 6:48 pm
    Reply

    Journalist likes journalism, blogger likes blogging shock.

    Any medium that can spawn Guido Fawkes and the lowlife who inhabit his site (and the many like it) has a problem, and overdefending it does nobody any good. Marr’s comments have a grain of truth amid the silo of nonsense.

    By the way, I’ve no idea why everyone picks on Andrew Marr’s ears. Have you seen the size of his nostrils? He should marry the woman who played the American agent in the first series of Spooks – their kids would have two holes where their faces should be.

    Sorry, we’re not allowed to talk about Andrew Marr having kids with people who aren’t his current wife, are we?

    Loading...
    • 12
      Tim on October 13, 2010 at 9:42 pm
      Reply

      Now, now, Dave. Journalist likes journalism, blogger likes both blogging and journalism, if you please.

      As a personal preference, I’m more than happy to avoid Guido Fawkes in the same way I avoid the Daily Mail and Andy Townsend’s match “analysis”. They’re just not my bag, but I will defend their right to exist (OK, maybe not Jan Moyer). A grain of truth? Undoubtedly. Although if Marr thinks political forums are bad, he should try out some of the football ones. I don’t think I’m over-defending blogging; I do think Marr’s over-attacking it, though, for the sake of a cheap headline. Has he got a book to promote or something?

      Not that it’s relevant to the matter at hand (or that I particularly care) but what’s this about extra-marital kids?

      Loading...
      • 13
        JasonR on November 20, 2010 at 3:35 pm
        Reply

        Google ‘Andrew Marr Alice Miles’

        Loading...
  7. 14
    driverrob on October 13, 2010 at 7:27 pm
    Reply

    I have no pretences to be a citizen journalist; I just blog what interests, annoys or appeals to me. I appreciate that a lot of bloggers take their political and news reporting/commenting very seriously and, although personal opinion can be evident – of course – the ones I’ve read do a valuable job. They do not try to sit on the fence and neither do they pander to bigots, homophobes or other vociferous minority groups.
    Long may they continue to do so.
    Your letter, Tim, is very well written and I would certainly add my signature.

    Loading...
    • 15
      Tim on October 13, 2010 at 10:38 pm
      Reply

      Thanks for the comment (and the compliment).

      You know, I’m not sure I even know what “citizen journalist” really means. Marr appears to use the terms interchangeably, but while I consider myself to be a blogger, I have no journalistic aspirations. Like you, I just write about stuff I like (and occasionally stuff I don’t), simply because the act of writing pleases me – and hopefully a few other people too.

      The one thing I particularly like about blogging is that it democratises opinions. Anyone with access to a PC – not quite universal in the UK, but getting there – and an idea can state an opinion, and people can choose to read it, comment on it and even share it with others. Okay, our audience may be infinitesimal when compared with the BBC or The Sun, but it is an audience nonetheless. And the right to air our opinions is not restricted to a professional elite. Surely that can only be a good thing, even if there is rough with the smooth? That’s what democracy is about, right?

      Loading...
  8. 16
    Jenni on October 13, 2010 at 9:05 pm
    Reply

    I simply don’t recognise myself in the caricature drawn by Andrew Marr. Nor does it seem representative of any of the bloggers I care to read. Editorial is only ever opinion and not “hard” news. The outpourings from the editors of the quality papers is not necessarily of any greater worth than the thoughts of Dave from Dagenham. Yet more evidence that traditional journalists feel threatened by the quality of output readily available for free in the blogosphere.

    Certainly in my area (loosely, consumer-friendly advice) the blogs are my only port of call for clear information on products.

    Andrew is merely yet another (well-remunerated) pontificator.

    Loading...
    • 17
      Tim on October 13, 2010 at 10:45 pm
      Reply

      Marr has a point insofar that when it comes to reporting news and current affairs, there is an inherent economic value in having a healthy professional journalism trade. Of course there is – the blogosphere would have little or nothing to feed on otherwise. And there are certainly political blogs and commenters which can get quite … feisty, let’s say. But it’s no good bleating on about citizen journalism being responsible for the decline in newspaper sales. Papers need to move with the times – pun not intended! – even if bloggers ceased to exist. Some media outlets choose to evolve and embrace online communities; others don’t. I know which camp I’m backing to survive!

      In your area, I also rely on blogs and forums for advice, whether it is product reviews, problem-fixing or any of a number of other useful applications. The right types of blogs in the right types of areas provide a valuable service. It may not be quite the citizen journalism Marr is attacking, but it is a valuable service. Indeed, he talks about spending lots of money on iTunes – surely reviews on there amount to much the same thing?

      Loading...
  9. 18
    Tobias Grubbe on October 13, 2010 at 9:19 pm
    Reply

    My congratulations on your measured post about the emotive subjects of language, communication and its commercial outlets.
    Regards,
    Tobias Grubbe
    Gentl. of Word and Picture

    Loading...
    • 19
      Tim on October 13, 2010 at 10:46 pm
      Reply

      Many thanks!

      Loading...
  10. 20
    Adam Stone on October 13, 2010 at 11:31 pm
    Reply

    I have to agree with everythng that you said, Tim.

    Add my signature to the list.

    I write about what I like and if people don’t like then tough. I write for myself in the main and if people read it then great, if they don’t then it’s not the end of the world.

    Loading...
  11. 21
    Dr Grumble on October 14, 2010 at 8:43 am
    Reply

    Any doctor or scientist (and doubtless other experts) will know that newspaper articles are full of inaccuracies. For example, it never ceases to amaze me how journalists do not seem to know that viruses and bacteria are different. Only recently I read about the ‘deadly malaria virus’: http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/8450305.Man_missing_after_malaria_trial_caught_on_CCTV/

    Worked-based bloggers know more about their work than a journalist can ever know and if they confine their ‘spewings and rantings’ to what they know about they are often more accurate than journalists, have a deeper understanding of the issues and are ahead of the game. They add value through their special expertise. I wish there were more of them.

    Of course Marr has a point. But he has done himself no favours. I knew nothing about the injunction until this episode. If he really wanted to keep his private indiscretions under wraps he shouldn’t have riled the blogosphere.

    Anyway your excellent measured riposte reply gives the lie to his allegations.

    Loading...
    • 22
      Tim on October 14, 2010 at 12:55 pm
      Reply

      Funnily enough, I was having a very similar discussion with a friend about science reporting yesterday. Such is the specialist nature of a lot of research, that even a generalist science correspondent might not necessarily understand everything (and multiply that a hundred-fold if the journo is not a science specialist). So, in the interests of journalistic balance, they feel compelled to report both sides of the fence equally, even if one camp is tiny and has limited credibility. As a result, commonly-held consensus becomes muddied by the lens of journalism, in the interests of “balance” (and of minimising the danger of the writer themselves looking stupid).

      It strikes me that science is a perfect fit for blogging. The total audience is not big enough to warrant serious, well-informed mainstream coverage, but a niche audience online would always find its way to good blogs on specific topics.

      Although I fear Marr might characterise most science bloggers as beardy-weirdy men in chemical-splattered lab coats …

      Loading...
  12. 23
    guerrillamum on October 18, 2010 at 10:47 pm
    Reply

    I’m a few days late on this discussion – having only just emerged from the basement! It was a disappointing bit of headline-grabbing on the part of Mr Marr. I expected better ….

    Ellen

    Loading...
    • 24
      Tim on October 19, 2010 at 8:39 am
      Reply

      I think we all did, Ellen. The sad thing is that while many people will recognise Marr’s comments for what they were, there are plenty of people out there who will also take what he said at face value. Now if you’ll excuse me, I have to go and write something angry, abusive and vituperative.

      Loading...
  13. 25
    World Spinner on October 24, 2010 at 8:18 am
    Reply

    In defence of bloggers: An open letter to Andrew Marr « Slouching ……

    Here at World Spinner we are debating the same thing……

    Loading...
  14. 26
    Ian Loste on October 25, 2010 at 12:56 pm
    Reply

    Thanks for your comments on bit.ly/9upI1z. Very eloquently put! It seems I’m rather more the target of the learned Mr Marr’s derision than yourself…

    Loading...
  15. 27
    What kind of writer am I? « Slouching towards Thatcham on November 2, 2010 at 3:44 pm
    Reply

    […] fiction. I’m not some angry acne-ridden misfit writing in my mother’s basement, as Andrew Marr so inelegantly stereotyped bloggers recently. I just write about “stuff I like”, rather than worrying about fitting into […]

    Loading...
  16. 28
    Rick Calvert on November 17, 2010 at 12:53 am
    Reply

    Excellent post Tim. Very glad I found your blog. Just came across it today after reading the infamous quote from Sir Andrew in an American trade magazine for Automotive Journalists.

    I won’t bother with a well reasoned response since you have already covered that. I will only suggest Mr. Marr check the financial status of all of those great institutions of journalism to remind himself of the wonderful condition his industry is in. Then he can search the “jobs wanted” section of his local newspaper, craigs list, monster.com etc to see the thousands of out of work “journalists” and editors. Then he can search those same publications to see the limitless opportunities for Bloggers, Community Managers, and Social Media Managers (The latter being the #1 job posting on Monster.com over here in the states). Our little blogging industry event over here in the states grew it’s attendance by nearly 50% this year Mr. Marr. Our trade show floor was sold out and dozens of traditional media editors, producers, journalists and journalism professors attended. How did your industry event do this year?

    The fact is Mr. Marr and his ilk are dinosaurs roaring against their inevitable extinction. That certainly doesn’t include all journalists. The smart ones are embracing new media as fast as they can and realizing they don’t need the approval of the Marr’s of the world. The talented content creators among them will experience success and fulfillment in their careers beyond their wildest dreams.

    Keep whimpering Mr. Marr. We are coming for you pimples and all.

    Rick Calvert
    CEO & Co-founder
    BlogWorld & New Media Expo

    Loading...
    • 29
      Tim on November 17, 2010 at 8:37 am
      Reply

      Thanks Rick – glad you liked the post.

      Marr’s outburst was a fairly shameless attempt to leverage his own traditional media profile to grab some cheap headlines. Of course, there are certain sections of the blogosphere which are filled with the kind of vitriol Marr alludes to – in particular the world of politics, which is his area – but many people saw through his ridiculous generalisations for what they were. It’s just a shame that there is always an uninformed segment of the population who swallow this rubbish hook, line and sinker. Still, those of us involved in the blogging world – whether as professionals or just enthusiastic hobbyists like myself – know better. 🙂

      Loading...
  17. 30
    200 up « Slouching towards Thatcham on November 19, 2010 at 7:02 am
    Reply

    […] In defence of bloggers: An open letter to Andrew Marr […]

    Loading...

Leave a Reply Cancel reply

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.

Hi, I’m Tim

Dad blogger - father of three, master of none, forever stuck somewhere in the mid-1980s, probably a Thursday

Follow on social media

  • Twitter
  • Instagram
  • Facebook
Get updates by email
Loading

Search

VuelioTop10Badge2019

Today’s top posts

  • A birthday letter to my seven-year-old daughter
    A birthday letter to my seven-year-old daughter
  • Cortex Challenge 2 game review
    Cortex Challenge 2 game review
  • A birthday letter to my seven-year-old son
    A birthday letter to my seven-year-old son
  • A birthday letter to my five-year-old daughter
    A birthday letter to my five-year-old daughter
  • Classic TV intros #4: Life On Mars
    Classic TV intros #4: Life On Mars

Archives

Powered by WordPress.com.
Footer navigation
  • Privacy policy
Secondary navigation
  • Twitter
  • Facebook
  • Instagram
  • YouTube
  • Search

Post navigation

Ugly Betty: Mid-season 4 review
The Apprentice candidates discover life’s a beach in product design task

Begin typing your search above and press return to search. Press Esc to cancel.

%d bloggers like this: